shifted_ooc | coordinated with the activity check for the first time ever

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coordinated with the activity check for the first time ever

How's my driving?

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You also just said in the above paragraph that he doesn't know how to control his power, so I'm rather confused on your point. If anything that should mean it would be more unpredictable and be used.

By "control", I mean he can't figure out the process to move between the two extremes in the way that he can for inanimate objects, not that he randomly switches between the two.

The thing is, that wasn't in that application. If that's how it was, I wouldn't have accepted it as it is. I also wasn't aware that the ability doesn't wear off.

Why wouldn't you have accepted it? If I had presented him as only being able to attract objects with no mention of repelling, would you have had the same reaction? I know there are 'official' characters out there with similar affects, such as Hathor from Stargate SG-1 and her magical pheromones (though, fair enough, she could control that as much as she wanted, but was also infinitely more godmode with it by taking over an entire military base). Does it make that much of a difference that the power came from my head, and not someone who was paid to come up with it?

As for the ability not wearing off, I did say it would, upthread with Mel. Simply that the more exposure there is, the longer it would take, and that more exposure can't be applied while the original bit is wearing off.

The idea that bothers me too is that because he's felt love, he can't repel, which seems odd to me since his life hasn't been perfect and shouldn't he feel dislike, then? Thus repelling?

It's not dislike that activates his repelling. It's hate: anger, burning, want-to-hurt-someone/yell-in-their-face hate. The opposite of that is love, the warm, caring, want-to-help/be-there-for-someone sort.

You make it sound like you're adverse to the idea of activating and using that, which I understand can cause conflict, but only attraction especially in this case feels unbalanced.

I'm going to quote myself here, from upthread:

I do like the idea! It sounds like it would be a lot of fun, it would probably just have to wait for an experiment of some sort to actually happen.

Alternatively, I was thinking of proposing a player plot that someone else could help activate Sefton's repulsion, either through hypnotism, moodulator malfunction or even something silly like a blow to the head, so it doesn't have to be an experiment that Sefton would just try to shrug off in the end.

Again, I'm sorry that you feel I was unclear and/or evasive in my application, because that was not my intention. However, I don't know what you want me to do, short of changing the way his power has operated for the year I've played him here, reboot him, or simply drop. Do you have any suggestions I may have overlooked?

It doesn't make a difference except that we do curve some powers on the Plane when they become too overbearing or unbalanced. We've done it before even if players don't mention it and we have requested in applications and revisions that powers be downplayed, changed or so on. So while I don't know Stargate, it's very likely we would do something about this. It is the same as if we had thought a fandom character's abilities were different than the way a player uses them in game. The problem here is we have no resources except you for this, so when you leave out details, it becomes something that needs to be addressed.

In that case, has Sefton only feel constant, pure passionate love? Because that seems to be the only way that the attraction could work if the only way to repel works by undying hate. And frankly, if you make it out that your character can't hate, then you're disregarding the idea of the repelling effect and we go back to square one. You also make it sound like there's a lot of hoops to go through to break off the attraction or to bring up the repel. Again, this would have been addressed if we knew.

I think what would be best is if you allowed for some development in the way the repel works. All this forcing doesn't seem very fair when characters can change and grow. I know you're going to comment on some of this with rebuttals but we're talking about the application and how the character was presented to us versus how you play him. Development is always a good thing to play with and could easily work. He's had a hard life and it seems hard to think he wouldn't have felt hate once in his entire life so far. Regular people, normal people living normal lives, have felt hate, so going through all that, why wouldn't he have at least once, enough to trigger the polarising aspects?

The problem here is we have no resources except you for this, so when you leave out details, it becomes something that needs to be addressed.

I agree that I may not have been clear in the application, as I've already said and apologized for. But... bringing it up an entire year later? It's been twelve months and eighteen days since Sefton has been in the game, and this is the first I've heard of this.

In that case, has Sefton only feel constant, pure passionate love? Because that seems to be the only way that the attraction could work if the only way to repel works by undying hate.

No, he does not constantly feel love. The point is that is what he first learned to do was love, and so that was the direction the switch was first flipped. Because of that, his power remains at that position. His power is constantly at one extreme or the other - if he can't activate the opposite power, it remains at the original side.

Think of it this way: even if he feels dislike for something, it's like pulling the big lever down, down, toward the other end, but unless you get it to the bottom and it clicks in place, it'll just spring back to the original setting.

And frankly, if you make it out that your character can't hate, then you're disregarding the idea of the repelling effect and we go back to square one. You also make it sound like there's a lot of hoops to go through to break off the attraction or to bring up the repel. Again, this would have been addressed if we knew.

Never have I said that he can't hate, simply that he has never been in a position where he would truly feel it. I'll say it again, I would love for a plot to happen that would force Sefton to confront this. It's just not happened in a way that I could realistically see Sefton coming into it yet.

I think what would be best is if you allowed for some development in the way the repel works. All this forcing doesn't seem very fair when characters can change and grow.

Just to reiterate, I never said I wouldn't allow development. Magic A is Magic A, but I'm all for having something tip him over into some major emotional crisis to lead into that development.

I know you're going to comment on some of this with rebuttals but we're talking about the application and how the character was presented to us versus how you play him.

I've apologized for my lack of clarity. I have apologized and there is nothing left I can do aside from move forward. Please, Kisha, I don't need to hear that the application doesn't line up with how I play him, either now or in the past. I would like to hear what I may be doing wrong in how I've developed him to this point while he's been on the Plane, or ways you could suggest for his growth to happen instead of saying it needs to.

He's had a hard life and it seems hard to think he wouldn't have felt hate once in his entire life so far. Regular people, normal people living normal lives, have felt hate, so going through all that, why wouldn't he have at least once, enough to trigger the polarising aspects?

The only hardness of his life has been within the last two years, which he considers to be his own doing since he was the one that ran away in the first place. The first fourteen years or so of his life were great because his power made sure he had extremely loving parents and good friends.

This is coming up now because we've been heavily reviewing OCs with the thought in mind of opening up OCs to the general public. It means we need to make sure they've worked well in this setting and worked as characters. So in reviewing Sefton, we realised some errors that needed to be addressed. This is a wrong on our parts for letting in the application when we weren't entirely sure about the ability but we trusted based on what we were given that it would work well. Now that we're reviewing everything up until now, however, we've realised that there are some issues.

Especially with an OC, we need to give it time to develop. As you said, we've given this a lot of time to work and watch and just see where it developed. We can't just put in an episode of canon or reread the material to see how things are matching up and developing. We're not going to police development, either. We feel you guys are good players, talented ones, that develop characters very well and it's always a delight to see that. But there hasn't been development in this case. Some of the details of your canon, some critical ones, are only being talked about now in this thread. We expected both sides of the polarity to be developed and discussed by now. Instead, we're getting a lot of new information that effects the character and interactions. As for how to develop, this plot would have been a good time to bring our unpleasant emotions. But what about his father in the past? Certainly there's no love there. Also he seems self-loathing, so why doesn't that effect things?

The reason the application is so important is because it is the only thing I can use to talk about this. I know you asked me not to but the problem is I can hardly suggest ways to develop him when new details are being raised now of all times. I don't know this character, I have nothing to go on except you and the information I've been given was incomplete at best and at worst, wrong.

We're not going to police development, either. We feel you guys are good players, talented ones, that develop characters very well and it's always a delight to see that. But there hasn't been development in this case.

Just because one aspect of Sefton's character hasn't come into play does not mean there has been no development. His willingness to stop the tarot plot and perform the voodoo ritual despite not knowing what it would actually do is what I would consider development, of the sort that he put himself out there to work with others and confront an issue, even if it wasn't his largest demon.

Similarly, there are smaller threads and other things that have effected Sefton, but the nature of the game is generally very static, current plot aside. The only real conflicts he has had to face are those from back home, which have developed him, though perhaps not in ways that are immediately obvious.

But there hasn't been development in this case. Some of the details of your canon, some critical ones, are only being talked about now in this thread. We expected both sides of the polarity to be developed and discussed by now. Instead, we're getting a lot of new information that effects the character and interactions.

You could have asked. I can't really say much more than that, because I've always been willing to talk about Sefton, his psychology, how his powers work, and anything else. There is literally nothing else I can reply to this point with. If you expected me to do something with Sefton that I did not, then please realize I had no way of knowing this until now. There was nothing I could have done.

I'm doing what I can to explain myself. Please, do continue to ask questions, but also accept that I have given thought to many of these things and may not want to alter things simply because we didn't understand each others' intentions from the get-go.

As for how to develop, this plot would have been a good time to bring out unpleasant emotions.

Indeed it would have. Unfortunately, I was busy around the time the negative hallucinations were going on and didn't want to subject Sefton to something as personal as that. While I am open for development, the hallucinations would have been more stress than he could realistically handle and would simply make the rest of the plot either unplayable or very unfun for me.

But what about his father in the past? Certainly there's no love there. Also he seems self-loathing, so why doesn't that effect things?

I don't understand what you mean to imply when you bring up his father? There's love there, even if it's now a frightened and horribly confused love. His self-loathing is a good point, but it's of a different sort and intensity, one that would not the sort of hate that would flip-flop his power.

I don't know this character, I have nothing to go on except you and the information I've been given was incomplete at best and at worst, wrong.

He's been in this game for a year. You say you have nothing to go on, but you could have dug up threads or asked for examples or something.

Implying that all of your information about Sefton comes from his application and then saying some of it is wrong is also insulting. I am not the best ever at writing long and hugely informative applications, if only because I do much better with the "show, don't tell" method of introducing characters to someone. If you were curious about him before, all you had to do was thread with him.

Alright. Time for my two cents. Maybe it'll help, maybe it won't, but it's eating at me. I just... really need to say something.

Yes, development was not done with both sides of Sefton's abilities. I can see that just as well as you can. But if that can be explained away by his psychology, and she's already clearly stated that she's going to do more with it in the future via player-plots or experiments or something despite the fact that it hasn't happened yet because of his psychology, why is it still being hung onto? She's conceded that she's willing to work on it. Isn't that... what was being asked to begin with?

I understand the need to be more critical with OC apps - believe me, I helped run an OC-only game, and it's crazy what people think they can get away with. But I don't see Sefton as overpowered, imbalanced or anything like that. Maybe I'm in the minority there, but I don't think I am or someone would have said something by now... right? I know I'm not a mod, but I just don't see where she's breaking any sort of rules.

DJ, she's right, you are shooting down her suggestions and then asking for more. It's fine that you can defend why her suggestions won't work, but it's not like she isn't trying to offer them at all. Which I'm sure you realize.

Kisha, I don't think she's talking down at you. She's defensive because to her knowledge, her app was not wrong or misleading, and she certainly didn't go into the app trying to be misleading just to get him into the game, and at some points I can see where it might seem like you were accusing her of such.

I am not trying to offend or attack either of you. I love you both, you are both my friends, and I care about you both a lot. I'm just... tired of communication breakdowns, and brick walls, and... unhappy stuff like that.

My overall and final point being... why is there still such an issue if she's said she's going to work on it?

tl;dr: can't we all just get along?

But his character is built about that one point. It isn't one minor trait. It's his core and something that effects his life heavily and everything that happens in it. If it was a minor thing, then yes, it wouldn't be a big deal, but this is something that is simply his character.

Yes, it is. It has shaped him and continues to shape him, making him reluctant to reach out to people and more desperate to do so. That he has not flipped over to hate yet is a byproduct of how his interactions on and off Plane have developed.

The problem is that his powers, something core and vital to his character, the huge thing about him, weren't told to us. I'm not curious about him in the respect of threading with him. I'm looking at this objectively in the sense that what I know of the character is based on what I've seen and his application and again, I'm seeing issues because his major character point isn't being played.

It is being played, although I'm sorry that it's not being played in the way you want. His power is largely tied to his psychology and it's because of that that he hasn't activated the other side yet, it's because of his power that he's yet to voluntarily offer his name on the Plane, it's because of the way he views himself-with-his-power that he has not properly reached out to anyone in-game. His power frightens him and inspires a large amount of guilt, which is mentioned in his app, and is largely played with.

It's not his potential for hate and using his power in a different way that defines him, but his potential for love and his power scaring him too much to act on that love. This is the point that I mentioned in his application, and this is the point that he has been developed toward.

I'm giving you suggestions but each one is shot down with information I don't know about. Only you know how his power works. I don't.

If I ever shot down your suggestions, it is with explanations and offers of compromise. I am trying to give opportunity for Sefton to develop in the way you believe he should, but it doesn't seem to be enough; you continue to say I should play on this aspect, and I have continued to agree that I would like to.

So while I can suggest and try to help, ultimately this is on you.

Agree to disagree. I am offering ways that I could realistically see this part of Sefton's psychology to be played on, and taking your suggestions into consideration. I've said I want to play on this in the future. What else is there that I can do?

As the case stands, we would like it if you wrote out a complete and detailed outline of his powers which includes everything you neglected to mention originally. This way, the mods can discuss this together if his abilities need to be changed for the Plane.

I know it's bad form to link things from other games, but please take a look. Ignore the werewolf stuff, obviously, but his magnetism is explained here, hopefully in a more coherent manner than I originally said in my application.

As for whether his abilities need to be changed, this confuses me. Why should his abilities (or, as you pointed out, his character) be changed simply because my application was incomplete? I have been playing him the same way from day 1, with the same concept in mind, and I've never received a complaint or haven't been able to work with someone without actually changing how his powers work.

Also, I am not insulting you and I would appreciate it if you didn't talk down at me during this discussion.

Then please give me the same respect. I doubt that it was your intention, but your words are coming off as very intimidating and otherwise unsettling.

I would like to return us to the thing this discussion is about: polarising abilities.

I don't mean Sefton's abilities by this. Regardless of the person, the abilities need to be worked out. You have have been good at making sure there were permissions, but, at present, that is irrelevant to the issues of the abilities. The ability set is one where a character can make people like them, where this affection does not fade/the possibility of it fading has not been considered, and where the repulsive aspect of polarisation does not exist or is so improbable at present that it does not factor into playing. That skill-set is problematic and, at the time of application, should have undergone discussion between moderators and the player to determine the full extent of these abilities and if any adjustments would need to be made. At that point, we might ask if the player would be open to allowing the effect to fade, if the player would consider a plot of some kind to invoke the reverse effect, and indeed exactly how it would function once that reverse effect is invoked. We have no canonical source for this plot set, so we do not know what the reverse effect would be like once it happens. If it happens, will the set be stuck permanently on repel? Will it be able to switch back and forth? Would Sefton gain some control of these abilities? What sort of hate constitutes the right kind, what sort of trigger must it be, what sort of love is the right sort of love? These are all things that ought to have been brought up between moderators and the player in question.

None of it was discussed, and that is my fault. I accepted this application unilaterally, without discussing it with the other moderators. That does not mean it should not be discussed now. It is still being put into play, it is still relevant. If the powers in question may change because of in-game events and we have no information on what will happen then, we need to know that information as well. I believe these are questions that would need to be asked regardless of what character, player, or story a character comes from.

(Arguably, it would be less problematic if the character came from a canon resource, as we would not need to discuss all aspects of it with the player because there would be resources for us to look up; however, if the canon was not comprehensive on the matter and left similar holes, then we would need to discuss with the player how they intend on dealing with these holes. Additionally, if it were a fandom character, we would be able to point out if there is something in canon which we believe is important but which was left off the application, the way important information was not here. We make requests for more information frequently. Any intention to deceive is both irrelevant and unlikely with every application, as intention is near-impossible to determine and in my optimistic opinion, people don't tend towards deliberate manipulation. Part of our obligation as moderators is to ask questions about this sort of thing. We failed to do so, and it does not seem unfair to ask for help in redressing our error now.)

So, could you please email us a comprehensive explanation of Sefton's powers, including information on what triggers the repellent aspect and how his powers will operate once that aspect is triggered? I'd also appreciate a more detailed explanation of this part of his powers: This ability carries over into affecting inanimate objects - if he touches something, he will either repel it from or attract it to himself. If he hits something, does that force move in the opposite direction, sending the object in question moving towards him? And if someone throws something at him, does the object fly backwards the moment it touches Sefton without applying force to him? Essentially, is Sefton incapable of throwing things at people and are things incapable of hitting him when thrown at him? These are questions I should have asked at the time of application and did not, and for that, I apologize.

Additionally, for the immediate future, could you please modify Sefton's application and permissions to include the fact that this ability cannot fade? This aspect may be one that changes under discussion, but until then, it is important to make note of this. One thing I have learned as a moderator is that you should always be as explicit as you can be, because you can't put the burden of assumption on other people. People will invariably assume contrary to what you think they will.

You explain it to some extent in your betenoire explanation, but I don't believe it's asking too much to request a full detailing now for discussion.

Again, I apologize that this issue has been put off for so long. I do not, however, believe it is a good idea to ignore it now based on precedent.

I will begin working on an e-mail and edit Sefton's application shortly, of course.

If he hits something, does that force move in the opposite direction, sending the object in question moving towards him? And if someone throws something at him, does the object fly backwards the moment it touches Sefton without applying force to him? Essentially, is Sefton incapable of throwing things at people and are things incapable of hitting him when thrown at him?

I'll answer this now, though, before I move to e-mail: he does not entirely repel or attract objects. Imagine that the force of object-hitting-person is 1.0/1.0 - if Sefton is repelling, it becomes 1.5/.5 (object/Sefton), meaning that the object would act as if it had hit something harder (thus, moving farther away) and Sefton would not react as much. The opposite is true for when attracting objects.

This is how I tend to try and explain it, but if it's still confusing, please let me know so I can try to come up with a different sort of wording for my e-mail.

Additionally, for the immediate future, could you please modify Sefton's application and permissions to include the fact that this ability cannot fade?

Similarly, I did not say it could not fade, just that it takes time. However, I will add it as you've requested once I'm done with making dinner.

Thank you, DJ. Don't worry about editing until we've got it all discussed? There's no need to put you through more work than necessary.

No, that makes sense. I wasn't sure if there was anything additional I was missing.

From what I understood, you had not fully established if it could fade off, if it depends on the situation, or if there would need intervention from the Twins/magical people/scientists etc. Of course you should include whatever information is true, not what I've interpreted (and if I have misinterpreted, clarification is always a good thing).

Thank you again. And thank the edit button for cutting out unnoticed repetition.

Edited 2010-10-25 21:13 (UTC)

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